Safe Sleep with Shayna Raphael – Episode 103

Safe sleep is SO important, and I’m a huge advocate for it having seen the grief on the other side many times. Today, on the podcast we have a safe sleep advocate who has also felt that grief.

Today’s guest is Shayna Raphael. Shayna is an educational consultant in the Pacific Northwest where she lives with her husband. Together, they have had three beautiful daughters. Unfortunately, Shayna lost her second child to unsafe sleep at child care. Since that time, Shayna has become a fierce advocate for infant safety and founded a non-profit, The Claire Bear Foundation. She believes strongly, and knows first-hand, that safe sleep can save lives. I met Shayna on Tiktok where she is a FIERCE advocate, and a great resource for parents!

This episode was inspired by my post on SIDS precautions.

Big thanks to our sponsor The Online Prenatal Class for Couples — knowing the FACTS is so important, and that’s what that course is all about. Getting prepared for your confident delivery in just 3 hours is a dream for most families, so get started today!

In this episode

How couples should talk about their baby sleep plans in advance (and we talk about that in The Online Prenatal Class for Couples.)

Shayna’s story about safe sleep

3 Things parents can be mindful about with safe sleep

Mom shaming on Tiktok

Other things that might interest you

Producer: Drew Erickson

Check out my other pregnancy podcasts:

Check out all my podcasts:

Transcript

[00:00:00.150] – Hilary Erickson

Hey, guys, welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast today on Episode 103, we’re talking about safe sleep. Huge advocate for this. Let’s untangle it.

[00:00:20.070] – Hilary Erickson

Hi, I’m Hilary Erickson, the curly head behind the Pulling Curls Podcast we untangle pregnancy, parenting, home and even travel. We know there’s no right answer for every family, but hopefully we can spark some ideas that will work for yours. Life’s tangled! Just like my hair.

[00:00:43.320] – Hilary Erickson

OK, guys, before we get started, I mean, if I was reviewing safe sleep, I would give it five stars, so maybe you could give me five stars on the old Apple iTunes podcast-orama.

[00:00:52.710] – Hilary Erickson

Thanks so much. Today’s guest I met on the tikkitytok! She unfortunately understands firsthand how important safe sleep can be. She is one of the founders of the Clare Bear Foundation. I want to introduce today’s guest, Shayna Raphael.

[00:01:10.730] – Hilary Erickson

Do you feel prepared for your delivery? In just three short hours, you can be prepared for the competent collaborative delivery you want, you’ll know what to expect and how to talk with your health care team. And there are no boring lessons in this class. I’ll use humor, stories from my 20 years in the delivery room to engage both of you. I love how Alissa told me that she found herself laughing at things that used to sound scary. Most of all, you guys are going to be on the same page from Bump to Bassinette. Join the online prenatal class for couples today, you can save 15 percent with coupon code UNTANGLED. You can find the link in the show notes.

[00:01:46.030] – Hilary Erickson

Hey, Shayna welcome to the Pulling Curls Podcast.

[00:01:48.580] – Shayna Raphael

Thank you for having me.

[00:01:49.570] – Hilary Erickson

Oh, so excited to have you here. I’ve seen you on Tik Tok forever.

[00:01:53.770] – Shayna Raphael

It’s a fun place. Sometimes.

[00:01:55.510] – Hilary Erickson

OK. OK. OK. So safe sleep. Was it always a passion of yours?

[00:02:01.160] – Shayna Raphael

You know, we’ve always been people who practice safe sleep, but it didn’t originate because we were looking at it so much from a safety aspect. It was just that my husband and I decided that our space was going to remain our space as adults and that we’ve always just had our kiddo in a safe sleep space. But then obviously it has morphed into something much greater where I now understand the whys and have dove further into the safe sleep area than I ever thought or wanted to before.

[00:02:31.900] – Shayna Raphael

So now I’m very passionate about it, but it didn’t start out necessarily that way.

[00:02:35.800] – Hilary Erickson

I love that you guys made that decision in advance. That’s something I always saw my prenatal class people, because I think a lot of times moms and dads don’t think about it at all or moms are educated about it. And then the baby comes home and the dads like, we have a nursery.

[00:02:49.750] – Shayna Raphael

Yep, exactly. Yeah, I know. And honestly, I’m- my husband, he can sleep through anything. I’m the one that even has a hard time, struggled with even room sharing because of kind of the anxiety and hearing everything and all of that.

[00:03:03.310] – Hilary Erickson

Oh yeah, I am unable to room share, so I count respiration’s. I cannot sleep at all, so. Oh well. OK. So tell us the story as to why you are such an advocate for safe sleep now.

[00:03:16.690] – Shayna Raphael

All right. Well now I am a huge advocate for safe sleep. Back in twenty fifteen we brought my daughter who at the time was the youngest player at. She was almost 11 months old to her in-home child care provider, which we’d been going to this woman since Claire was three months old. And my older daughter Lily actually went there when she was an infant, as well as other people in my grad school programs and just someone that we trusted. And that day on my thirty first birthday, my husband brought Claire to child care like he normally would.

[00:03:50.200] – Shayna Raphael

And I had taken the day off to spend some time with my oldest. And about noon I started to get phone call after phone call first from my mom, which it’s not out of the ordinary for my mom to call me multiple times if I don’t answer. So I didn’t think anything of it. Then, strangely enough, my husband called, which is a little bit alarming during the workday for him to call me and told us that we needed to get to the hospital.

[00:04:13.480] – Shayna Raphael

It was a long night, long few months while we waited for the autopsy and everything. And we had no idea that our child care provider hadn’t been honest with us about where Claire was sleeping. So even the doctor that night thought that maybe she had choked on something we weren’t quite sure. And then it wasn’t until the autopsy report came back that we found out that Claire was in an unsafe sleep environment, that they had been putting her down to sleep on their adult bed in their home rather than the safe sleep spaces they had shown us.

[00:04:47.320] – Shayna Raphael

And Claire asphyxiated during her nap, which then threw us into this world of trying to understand what it is that happened. And I ended up learning about safe sleep more than I ever knew before, and becoming a huge advocate and just wanting people to be more aware as a way initially started out as a way to kind of channel my grief and anger and sadness. And now it’s become something that I’m really passionate about.

[00:05:15.010] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, I love it. You do a great job on tik tok about informing people. I think so many people feel like a tot in their bed is a safe sleep environment. Yes. And it’s always made me very nervous from the nurse who tells people just don’t put the baby in your bed ever.

[00:05:31.060] – Shayna Raphael

Yep.

[00:05:31.420] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, yeah. OK, so interesting on day care, just if there are parents listening like you, so you would ask where does baby sleep or.

[00:05:39.760] – Shayna Raphael

Yeah, we know we had had explicit conversations about it both with my oldest and with Claire because we with my oldest, like I said, it was more of kind of a convenience thing for us at home, but we knew that that’s where she should be sleeping. And we’ve had that conversation. And I still don’t know to this day whether or not she had my oldest in a safe sleep space that she showed us or if she had her on the bed.

[00:06:03.220] – Shayna Raphael

She did tell police officers that she had started putting Claire on their adult mattress when she was about seven months old and then in the same conversation, identified the safe sleep recommendations up through one year to a t to detectives. So that was pretty frustrating that she knew what was safest and what she should be doing, but decided on her own that Claire was strong enough to not be in a safe sleep space. I try really hard to not judge parents who choose to bed chair because I understand that it’s a parent decision.

[00:06:35.530] – Shayna Raphael

But I think to have a child care provider make that decision for a family is just wildly inappropriate and outside of the scope of what any person who isn’t the parent should be deciding for that child.

[00:06:49.100] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah. And at 11 months, like they can crawl off that thing.

[00:06:52.070] – Shayna Raphael

Honestly, that would have been my first worry. I remember breathing a sigh of relief, I think, when Claire turned seven or eight months old and be like, OK, we’re good. We’re out of the peak stage for a sleep related death. But, yeah, my no one fear would have been that she would have craw led off. She was almost walking and she was cruising along furniture, which why initially we did find out that there had been some ibuprofen pills on the ground in the room.

[00:07:17.660] – Shayna Raphael

And so that also led us to wonder if she had possibly choked on something, if she had taken too many. But a sleep related death like asphyxiation that she had isn’t something that I necessarily would have thought was in the realm of possibilities at her age. Even though we know it’s up through a year of age, it’s just not as common at her age.

[00:07:36.140] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, so interesting. What is it to nine months, right? SIDS, most often SIDS.

[00:07:41.270] – Shayna Raphael

It can go up to one year, but yeah, most commonly through nine months. And actually the peak is two to four months. So I remember the E.R. doctor that night after he’d come in and kind of explained to us what happened, even he himself said it’s likely something else because she’s outside of what we see is the typical range for sleep related death. And we’ve since kept in contact with him. And he was just as surprised as we were. But that goes to show why they have those recommendations up through one year of age.

[00:08:11.030] – Hilary Erickson

I will say that this type of death for the hospital staff is extremely difficult for us as well. So I’m sure he was heartbroken.

[00:08:18.210] – Shayna Raphael

So he you know, I don’t really remember a lot from the conversations that night in the emergency room. We were talking to medical staff. We were talking to detectives. We weren’t allowed to talk to the child care provider. And I didn’t remember a lot of what he said. So two weeks later, he came and met with me one on one and walked me through the moment that she was at the E.R. until they called her time of death and just walked through all the steps to answer my phone calls and emails for years.

[00:08:45.560] – Shayna Raphael

He’s retired now and we still will keep in contact. He’s just a wonderful person as well as the there are a couple of nurses that were there that night that we see when we go into her classroom and have events at the hospital.

[00:08:58.220] – Hilary Erickson

Oh, my gosh, that gives me chills. Like, what a kind thing to do. Oh, yeah. Not not a lot out of his time, but such a such a valuable pieces of information for you to have. Absolutely. OK, so what are three things that parents can be really mindful with about safe sleep?

[00:09:12.980] – Shayna Raphael

I think one of the main things is that simplicity is best so alone on their back on a safe sleep space that they have all these gadgets and contraptions out here nowadays that you can use that. Luckily I didn’t even have to navigate with my oldest, who’s only almost ten now. But if you keep it simple, it’s going to tend to be less overwhelming. Number two would be to be mindful of all those gadgets that you don’t need them, that if something says it’s a SIDS reducer, that it likely isn’t the safest because we know that there’s nothing proven to reduce SIDS, no products, that we know that there are factors that we can take in to mitigate the risk, but we’re not going to prevent something that is true, SIDS.

[00:09:56.390] – Shayna Raphael

And then third of all, just to be empowered that you get to make decisions for your own child, because I see so much of a struggle with grandparents or family members that did things one way. And now as new parents, they’re trying to do something the other way. And they might feel that they don’t have the experience to kind of put their foot down on the practices that they want for their child. But just to know that, I think new parents have even more knowledge.

[00:10:25.670] – Shayna Raphael

They have far more knowledge now that especially when I see things like on Tik Tok than I ever was aware of our questions that I knew to ask when I was younger. So just be empowered and feel empowered to make your decision for your child.

[00:10:39.080] – Hilary Erickson

I mean, it’s hard because for our parents it was always tell me, tell me to sleep. And then we just flipped it. And I’m sure that was like a complete 180, because given my mom so my oldest is twenty, you’ll be twenty one in the summer. And it was just a lot like she thought well he spits up. Where’s it going to go. Because that was their big daddy put them on their tummy. If they split up it’ll just go on the mattress.

[00:10:57.020] – Hilary Erickson

So be mindful of your parents. If they have opposite opinions, just inform them as to why. And all the studies have shown that when you put them back to sleep, it’s just safer. Don’t just be like your dumb mom because that’s not going to help her either. The some of the best advice that my mom ever gave me when I was pregnant with my oldest was you’re going to get all this input from all these different people. So just smile and nod and then do what you think is best for your child.

[00:11:23.150] – Hilary Erickson

That I do see a lot of people in Texas where their mom watches the baby and the mom puts the baby on their belly. So that’s a tough one. Again, I would bring all the studies because your mom loves that baby just as much as you do, like she’s not doing it to be.

[00:11:36.560] – Shayna Raphael

Yeah, I think that it would it would be very rare to find anyone, whether it be a friend or a grandparent, a parent that doesn’t think. They are doing what’s best for their child.

[00:11:47.210] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, OK, here’s the gold in question. Have you ever fallen asleep holding your baby?

[00:11:50.840] – Shayna Raphael

So I have definitely been extremely sleepy. I have not fallen asleep in my bed for the reasons that you and I spoke about is that I just never really had the baby right next to my bed. We always tried room sharing and it didn’t work. So from the get go with my oldest, my husband and I worked in shifts during those first two months that are the hardest and had the baby in a pack and play in the living room. So whatever parent was on shift was in the living room with the baby and the other parent was in the bedroom so that they could actually get sleep during their three or four hour shift.

[00:12:24.380] – Shayna Raphael

I will say I’ve been extremely sleepy holding my children before and it’s scary and sleep deprivation is incredibly real. I don’t function well on no sleep. I was fortunate that my husband, who had just transitioned out of the military, was used to all night long patrols and his sleep wasn’t so great. So if he was up, he would always help with the babies. But I did definitely have to implement some habits, like not ever feeding my babies in extremely comfortable positions.

[00:12:57.920] – Shayna Raphael

I almost always had my phone on, which is a nice tool that we have nowadays to keep myself busy either playing endless games of Candy Crush or watching a horrible show on Bravo or whatever it is that would help keep me up at night. But sleep deprivation is totally real, and I understand that parents are going to fall asleep. I don’t disagree with people who say you should take precautions just in case your child does fall asleep. But I would also say take precautions to do everything you can to not let that happen, meaning maybe not feeding your baby in the bed or having a cold glass of water, something that you know is going to help keep you up and awake.

[00:13:41.150] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, I have to say, I have fallen asleep holding the baby. And then you wake up and you just have to instantly be like, never again. Yeah. Like all the things you do as a parent, the kid runs out in the parking lot. Right. There’s all these things that you’re like, never again. Like, Oh, yeah, this was clearly a mistake and we’re always going to make those kind of things. But I think a lot of people just are like, oh, this is easier.

[00:14:01.700] – Hilary Erickson

And I’m adamant non bed chair. I’ve seen moms who lost a baby and then they come back for the next baby and it’s just so hard.

[00:14:10.160] – Shayna Raphael

Oh, yeah. No, it’s it’s horrific. And I know that what people have experienced frames their mindset and their filter through which they find information. So for me, obviously, I would rather take all the precautions and have a few sleepless nights than these six years of just heartache and missing Claire than I would taking precautions to bed chair because I know the risk even when pillows and blankets aren’t playing a role in it. So while the first few months seem like everything to a parent who’s going through the sleepless nights and is in the midst of it, and it’s so hard from someone who is six years out and still having all my sleepless nights because I go to bed thinking about Claire and I wake up thinking about Claire, that that small snippet in time, the ramifications it could have lifelong and this ripple effect of pain and grief and heartache just is not worth any risk.

[00:15:11.930] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, for sure. So, guys, so the things you mentioned, nothing in the crib. I also see grandparents coming in and asking me why there isn’t a pillow in the warmer. I’m always like, first off, it’s like hot in there. Second. You know, we don’t need any pillows. We don’t need any stuffed animals. If they’re two and a half still sleeping in the crib, then you could consider like throwing in a stuffed animal maybe that they could play with.

[00:15:34.880] – Hilary Erickson

But they don’t need that when they’re tiny. I use bumpers on my first, though.

[00:15:38.780] – Shayna Raphael

As did I.

[00:15:39.290] – Hilary Erickson

Everything’s changed. Like, I don’t want people to think I had bumpers. Did my mom do it wrong? No, at the time she didn’t. That was to keep your arm from breaking. I don’t know. Also, they were very cute.

[00:15:48.980] – Shayna Raphael

Yes. They came with the Set. Like, what were you going to do with them? They came with the Set.

[00:15:53.360] – Hilary Erickson

Still Have them.

[00:15:55.940] – Hilary Erickson

So you’re on Tik Tok.

[00:15:58.160] – Shayna Raphael

Yes.

[00:15:58.460] – Hilary Erickson

What do you think? Let’s just have a let’s have a little zooming on. Tick tock.

[00:16:02.930] – Shayna Raphael

Tick tock. You know, I didn’t even set out with tick tock with in mind that I was going to be the safe sleep advocate on there. I just once happened to make a video about Claire at the start of the pandemic, like, I think with so many other people also joined Tik Tok. And then I got all these questions about what happened and it kind of morphed into it. And I will say I have met such incredible supportive people along the way and families who genuinely just have questions.

[00:16:29.690] – Shayna Raphael

Our nonprofit has been able to give out countless numbers of safe sleep space to families that wouldn’t have known about us as a resource had it not been for a tick tock. I have also experienced some incredible backlash. And accusations and comments that are just pretty heartbreaking and I know I need to take it with a grain of salt, because that’s social media when you’re behind a computer screen. And I don’t think most of the people who put what they put in the comments would likely say it to me if we were meeting in person, because I think there’s this ability to not be as empathetic or even sympathetic if the person’s not right there.

[00:17:09.140] – Shayna Raphael

But being accused of being a mom shamer is probably one of the biggest accusations that I get. But as you know, I take the stance. I never comment anything negative on other people’s videos. I don’t critique people who make videos even that I find to be wildly unsafe. But I will share information on my page. And I kind of have this unwritten rule that I stick to my page. But this last weekend was a little crazy. It was the first time I’d ever been accused of lying about how my daughter died in order to I think the word was fearmonger other parents into safe sleep.

[00:17:44.030] – Shayna Raphael

So that was a whole new low, particularly because it was by a nurse as well. That triggered me a little bit. I’m not going to lie that I had. I had a very rough few days.

[00:17:55.850] – Hilary Erickson

I was shocked. I didn’t know she was a nurse. What kind of nurse?

[00:18:00.290] – Shayna Raphael

Well, she worked for the health care system that the where that the hospital where Claire died at is. Oh, my gosh. Yes. That’s where we have Claire’s room. It was. And so at that time, she was an E.R. nurse. Now I believe she’s a clinical care nurse. But yeah. So to have that sort of attack come from someone within the medical community wasn’t something I had expected. Like, you know, I understand parents who maybe don’t have the education and medical training and practice getting very defensive when they hear that something that they’ve chosen to do may not be the safest.

[00:18:38.660] – Shayna Raphael

And I don’t think that a lot of those people are ill intended, but they just take safe sleep videos as a personal attack, which, you know, I get it’s hard to think that maybe you unknowingly put your child in unsafe sleep space. But to have that come from someone in the medical profession was it was just a lot of it was kind of digging up old newspaper articles. And which was the newspaper article was actually about the training room that we have in the hospital that we when we we did file a wrongful death lawsuit against the child care provider, you get those funds and it’s like, well, what am I supposed to do with this?

[00:19:17.840] – Shayna Raphael

I remember when we got the check in the mail and it was not like it was this tremendous amount. But I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed because I didn’t want that. I wanted Claire. So we gave the money to the hospital with the direction that that doctor would decide where it needed to go. So then he spent a few years or a couple of years thinking about it. And then in twenty eighteen, the field training room opened up, which has it’s a child simulation trauma room with child sized mannequins that can give them in the moment feedback and different scenarios for CPR, intubation, all sorts of different situations so that when medical personnel do experience working on a child, maybe for the first time, it’s not going to be as upsetting, an alarming and less hesitation.

[00:20:04.940] – Shayna Raphael

But to get back to the question, yes, knowing that that was coming back from a medical professional and the sort of accusation she was making, it was really disheartening. I guess it takes all kinds of tests. I mean, maybe you’ve made it on Tik Tok once you get attacked like that and then have an apology video posted towards you, I don’t know.

[00:20:26.630] – Hilary Erickson

Oh, she apologized.

[00:20:28.730] – Shayna Raphael

I think maybe that was the.

[00:20:33.770] – Hilary Erickson

Kind of like a Schitt’s Creek apology.

[00:20:36.580] – Shayna Raphael

I mean, she could have just started it out with with all due respect and stuff.

[00:20:41.870] – Hilary Erickson

So I just so that the beginning our intro to the podcast is always like there is no solution that works for every family. And I 100 percent agree with that. Having your babies out of your room is not the best choice, but I literally cannot sleep with them in there. And the best choice for us is for me to still be not kill them because I can’t ever sleep. So every family has to navigate stuff on their own. And I don’t ever want people to think I’m mom shaming by just saying these are the guidelines that’s educating to me.

[00:21:08.840] – Shayna Raphael

You know, it’s like teaching someone the rules of the road and what’s safest when you’re learning how to drive and what science tells us is best. And the you know, we have organizations like the AP who are not some nefarious group out to get us. You know, Dr. Moon is amazing and she’s answered emails that I’ve personally written her before when I’ve had questions about the AP regulations. And I try to stick as close to just the AP regulations as I possibly can and not input my own personal opinion on things for.

[00:21:44.270] – Shayna Raphael

For that exact reason, because here is all the information, consider it and then, yes, you’re going to make the decision that you feel is best for your family.

[00:21:52.290] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, and there are these are all guidelines that are put out there. And but I will say that companies make it real hard. I mean, I’ve been to the baby shows and you’re like I’m like, this doesn’t seem real safe. And they’re like, oh, I’m certified by you. You can get certified by anything. It could just be for the plastic that you use most often.

[00:22:07.550] – Shayna Raphael

Yeah. So I talk about that a lot on the Tic-Tac pages. I’ll have parents send me messages and say, hey, is this product safe? And it’s hard to navigate. Right. We have products like Nappers and Sleeper’s which aren’t safe for sleep. And why would a new parent think otherwise? And then you reach out to a company and I’ll ask them which 80 ASTM standards they meet and they’ll list off a whole bunch of standards. But the average person isn’t going to understand that those standards are for toys or once I even think I got one for bunk beds for an NBN Co sleeper.

[00:22:43.310] – Shayna Raphael

But who knows who really. I would not have known which standards I needed to look for. I would have asked a company or seen that they met those ASTM standards. And if they said, yes, I would have taken that and ran with it.

[00:22:55.810] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, it’s just so hard. And because I get I mean, people email me about baby products all the time, which I pretty much refuse if you’re a baby products company. But so often I’m like, this doesn’t look safe and they just get mad when I say that. So.

[00:23:08.630] – Shayna Raphael

Oh yeah, no, that’s what happens. There’s the there’s the routine that they’ll go through. I’ve gotten that too.

[00:23:15.140] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah. And I’m like, you realize I have the R n behind my name. Like safety is always going to be like my number one.

[00:23:20.270] – Shayna Raphael

Yes. I don’t care. And it should be with most nurses. Yeah.

[00:23:24.440] – Hilary Erickson

Like sleep positioners. Those are a big thing too. And they’ve been a big thing forever. Like I think it comes from our moms who wanted the spit up to come out of their mouth. So people like the idea of like tilting the baby a little bit so that the spittle comes out, which in fact we do in the ni Q. You there are positions that we use in the neck, but it’s completely different because your baby’s on a heart monitor in the neck.

[00:23:42.530] – Hilary Erickson

You and the nurse is wide awake and with your baby all day long.

[00:23:45.980] – Shayna Raphael

So, yes, I see I see that a lot with the argument for Nesse and Hatzis. Oh, well, they used it in the nick you and it’s like that is you’re in a hospital with specialists on a hospital grade monitor. It’s just not the same thing. But I understand why some parents might find that confusing. I was glad to see that the AP finally came out with a statement against breastfeeding pillows and. Yes. And sleep conditioners for sleep.

[00:24:13.940] – Shayna Raphael

I think that that was helpful because so often we’ll go to the CPC or AP for specific products and they don’t endorse or speak out against specific brands or products. So you kind of have to read between the lines. So I think that whenever they can add more clarity for us to be able to understand it easily, especially having that healthy children dog website, that it just makes it easier for parents to have a resource to find answers.

[00:24:40.070] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, I mean, that rock and play.

[00:24:42.770] – Shayna Raphael

Bane of my existence.

[00:24:45.050] – Hilary Erickson

Oh yeah. It was so popular, so popular.

[00:24:48.470] – Hilary Erickson

People loved it. I mean, babies slept really well in it.

[00:24:51.230] – Shayna Raphael

Yeah. No they, they slept incredibly well. And then with that was still the recommendation that a lot of medical professionals were using to including a child with reflux. And now we know that that isn’t the best for reflux. But it does get confusing because common sense, if you’re thinking about it, you would think that it makes it better and not worse. So you have products like the rock and play where just I swear, I had a huge celebration when they got recalled just because to take one last unsafe option off the market is huge.

[00:25:22.070] – Hilary Erickson

That was so popular and pretty well priced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So nothing in the crib. Guys, do what works for you, but also be mindful and listen, most hospitals will send you home with safe sleep environment. Try and listen to what they say. That’s mostly where most people I think, get it at the beginning. Unless they watch somebody on social media or something. We definitely make people watch a video, I think, before they go home.

[00:25:45.290] – Hilary Erickson

Yes, our hospital had books, pamphlets sent us home with swaddles, but it was actually our pediatrician that was probably the most help with us navigating it.

[00:25:55.070] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah. And you see your pediatrician so much in those first few months, probably as much as your husband. Yes. Yes, definitely. All right. Thanks for coming on.

[00:26:05.180] – Shayna Raphael

So helpful. All right. Thanks so much.

[00:26:07.550] – Hilary Erickson

OK, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Actually, when we were done, I was like, oh, we didn’t talk about it. And she said she did buy one for her third baby, who looks to be maybe like two ish now. And she did get one, which I would probably recommend that people get one in that situation as well. But she said after a few weeks, she was obsessively checking it like she couldn’t sleep because she was checking the outlet instead of checking on the baby.

[00:26:27.980] – Hilary Erickson

So she finally decided that she needed to put it away and know that she had done all the things that she could do and she had to just hope for the best. And I tell people that in my online prenatal class, I think it’s really important that we just do what we can. And then so much of parenting is faith and hope that things will turn out OK. I mean. I have drivers, and that’s all you can do. You can make sure that the car is safe and and that they’re trained as well as you can, and then you send them out on the road.

[00:26:51.360] – Hilary Erickson

So hopefully nobody feels shamed or anything by this. We’re really just trying to give you guys the guidelines that you can make the best choices on your own. I want to thank Shayna for coming on. It’s such an impressive story and she’s so impressive about how she has dealt with it and really has turned it into a positive thing that has probably saved a lot of babies lives. So thanks for coming on Shayna and thanks for being great.

[00:27:10.050] – Hilary Erickson

Thanks so much for joining us on today’s episode. We know you have lots of options for your ears and we are glad that you chose us. We drop episodes weekly and until next time, we hope you have a tangle free day.