Preventing Porn Addiction in Teens with Stephen Moore from The PBSE Podcast – Episode 77

Teens are on screens now more than ever, but how do we make sure that they are prepared to make good choices online and keep connections with people vs just screens.

Today’s guest is Stephen Moore. He is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who has a strong background in addiction-related treatment and program development. He is a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist (CSAT), Certified Partner Trauma Therapist (CPTT), and as a sex addict in successful recovery himself. He owns Ascension Counseling in American Fork, Utah, a private practice which focuses on all issues related to attachment and intimacy disorders, ranging from sexual compulsion to betrayal trauma. (www.ascensioncounselingutah.com)

Stephen is the co-founder and co-host of the weekly podcast, PBSE, which offers a raw and real forum for the discussion of the issues, obstacles, and solutions for healing dealing with trust, intimacy, and attachment issues. (www.daretoconnectnow.com) Stephen is also the co-author of The Pornography Paradox: Why Christian Men Are Too Often Trapped in Sexual Addiction and How to Break Free.

Their couple’s therapy course is coming soon!

Big thanks to our sponsor Family Routines. If you’re looking to get into good routines at your house — organizing your people. It is the course for you!

Mentioned in the episode:

My son’s episode on parenting teens

Stephen’s Mom’s episode on losing her husband

• How to talk to teens & kids about sex and pornography
• What problem signs to watch for if your kid has a problem
• What to do if you think your teen has a problem.

Fortify to help kids with pornography issues.

Other things that might interest you

Episode on talking to kids about sex.

We use The Circle for filtering our home internet.

Producer: Drew Erickson

Check out my other parenting podcasts:

Check out all my podcasts:

Transcripts

[00:00:00.145] – Hilary Erickson

Hey, guys, welcome back to the Pulling Curls Podcast. Today on Episode 77, we’re touching on kind of a different topic. We’re talking about kids and pornography. My kids are home and they’re on screens all day. And we have previously had a lot of rules around screens. I don’t know if you’re like me, but things are just changing and I’m having to adjust kind of on the fly. And so I just thought this was a great topic to have him on, especially after I talked with Conner on that previous episode, my son, about raising teens. I’ll link to that one in the show notes. But yeah, let’s untangle it.

[00:00:39.255] – Hilary Erickson

Welcome to the Pulling Curls Podcast, I’m Hilary, your curly headed host on the podcast, where we untangle everything from pregnancy, parenting and home routines. I want you to know that there are no right answers for every family. And I find that simplifying my priorities is almost always the answer. It’s tangled just like my hair.

[00:01:03.695]

Okay guys, before we get started, please leave a review, you guys have no idea how much it helps my podcast get seen, because if you look under, like, where you will listen to a podcast on Apple, it says other podcasts. And the only way I get into that little line is by your review. Thank you.

[00:01:19.625]

OK. Today’s guest is a licensed clinical social worker. He has his own practice called Ascencion Counseling in Utah. He is a survivor of a previous porn addiction and he’s been sober six years having his own counseling practice. He is also the podcaster on the Dare to Connect podcast, where he has a co podcast or let’s see how many times I can say podcast.

[00:01:37.775] – Hilary Erickson

Both of them have previously had addictions. So it just really deals with all of that in a really real and raw way. We’re all just on a spectrum. Right. And then he is also my cousin. His mom and his sister have been on my podcast. His mom was on episode forty eight talking about her husband dying. And you’ll hear in this episode Steven talks about his dad dying. So you want to reference both of those? You can.

[00:01:57.845] – Hilary Erickson

I want to introduce today’s guest, Stephen Moore.

[00:02:01.655] – Hilary Erickson

This episode of The Pulling Curls Podcast is sponsored by Family Routines: How to Automate Your Housewife Life. Ever wish life was more like you pictured? It would be before you had kids being able to spend less time at the mundane tasks and more time teaching kids the fun and valuable life skills you know, they need. Family Routines teaches families to simplify daily tasks into routines that help them feel more peace and joy. Save 15 percent with a coupon code UNTANGLED. You can find it at Pulling Curls Podcast in the menu under courses or in this episode show notes.

[00:02:34.865] – Hilary Erickson

Hey, Stephen, welcome to the Pulling Curls Podcast.

[00:02:37.265] – Stephen Moore

Good morning. Yeah, good to be here.

[00:02:40.085] – Hilary Erickson

So excited about porn.

[00:02:42.395] – Stephen Moore

Yes, all things porn, right.

[00:02:44.915] – Hilary Erickson

I in my calendar it just said record porn with Steven.

[00:02:49.565] – Stephen Moore

Yes. And I saw that I was going to actually mention that. I looked at that. I said, you know, Hilary in my line of work, that can mean so many things because I deal with that in a literal sense.

[00:03:00.285] – Stephen Moore

So I thought that was pretty funny, actually, like.

[00:03:03.155] – Hilary Erickson

You know, like to keep things light on the erickson family calendar. Luckily, I don’t think my kids can see that one.

[00:03:09.455] – Stephen Moore

Oh, I don’t know. Hopefully what I have to mark this podcast with, like an adult rating will try to keep it.

[00:03:14.645] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, we keep it in this claim by FBI parents. If you have I guess if you have tiny, tiny people, but if you have teenagers, turn it up.

[00:03:21.995] – Stephen Moore

There you go. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:03:25.255] – Hilary Erickson

OK, so kids are online more than ever? Probably. Yes. And I’m letting my kids be online more than ever. They have to. My kids are home virtual. Twenty four seven. Totally. Yeah. So Steven has a history of porn when he was a teen. A teen.

[00:03:41.645] – Stephen Moore

Right. Well teen. And then and then some but yeah.

[00:03:45.725] – Hilary Erickson

Well it started when you were a teen, right.

[00:03:47.495] – Stephen Moore

Yes, that is right. So what.

[00:03:49.715] – Hilary Erickson

Because I think all of us kind of wonder like what started it.

[00:03:53.015] – Stephen Moore

Yeah. Yeah absolutely. So I just kind of give you the ten second version of us. So I’m, I am a therapist by trade and I probably have a I’m a little bit different than maybe your typical therapist because I try to integrate a lot of psychology and obviously clinical stuff, but with my own story. So I’m I’m a recovering we refer to it as sex addicts.

[00:04:12.995] – Stephen Moore

Sex and porn addicts have been in recovery for about ten years. I’ve been sober for about six where that whole thing started. For me. I was I was you know, when you talk about kind of the origins of where these things start, it’s important to kind of know it’s not just about access points necessarily. Right. I think you to ask that question, what was the what’s the access point that typically happens? And it is about access points, but it’s what the research is showing and what I’m seeing in my clinic more and more, is that just as important as access points and the availability of them?

[00:04:42.755] – Stephen Moore

Probably even more so, honestly, in a lot of respects is the environment in which somebody grows up and and the other factors kind of going on in the person’s life. So things like support system, recent trauma, stuff like that. Now we could do a whole podcast on trauma, but like for me, there was kind of a perfect storm of sorts that set in for me. My dad had passed away. I was thirteen. My dad had passed away like nine months before, and I was the only other boy in the family, me growing up in my family.

[00:05:12.005] – Stephen Moore

It was kind of like me and my dad against the world. It was it was two drops of testosterone and like a sea of estrogen kind of a thing.

[00:05:18.215] – Hilary Erickson

And you have girly sisters.

[00:05:21.675] – Stephen Moore

I do. Yes, I very much do. One of- two of them run podcasts and blogs and they’re very good in a good way. But but but when he passed away, we kind of had this dynamic in my family where, like my dad and I, we were kind of buds.

[00:05:38.465] – Stephen Moore

We did everything together. And when he came home from work, I’d go upstairs with him while he was, like, unchanging, out of work clothes and the night stuff. And we just talk about our day and like that was kind of like him and me time kind of thing. And when he passed away, I remember just feeling among so many other I mean, I was angry. I was angry at God. I was angry at my dad for getting on the plane.

[00:06:01.745] – Stephen Moore

That morning. He died in a plane crash. I had a lot of anger, but nowhere to really send it right. My dad was gone. The people who owned the plane were dead. There was like nobody to be ticked off at. And so I had a lot of emotions to send, but nowhere to put it. And you kind of combine that with I remember a family member put their arm around me at at the funeral. And just like a lot of loving relatives do, they will say things that sound really good, like in a movie that are like horrible advice to give.

[00:06:34.715] – Stephen Moore

So I remember distinctly this relative, you know, it is but put their arm around me and said, you’re the man of the family now. You’ve got to take care of these people. At thirteen, thirteen years old. Right. I’m now responsible for these for these ladies. And I remember that and a couple of other experiences when my uncle died about three years later, who kind of filled in for as a father for me, I remember something kind of snapped inside.

[00:07:01.535] – Stephen Moore

And what it brought about was this extreme sense of emotional isolation. It was this notion we call it trauma, but it was this idea of I can’t open up to people because if I do, they go away. So I became really, really isolated and was kind of living this outside stoic existence with my with my sisters and my mom. But in insular, I was just dying inside. And it was right at this kind of maturation point when most guys get sexually curious, when masturbation usually starts to become an experimentation type thing and for women as well.

[00:07:33.085] – Stephen Moore

And all of a sudden, I found this thing, I discovered masturbation, and I found this thing that also made all my problems go away for five minutes, for ten minutes, I didn’t feel anything bad, like it was just like a drug. And for a kid in that position with no better ways of coping, it was like it was like the mirage in the desert. It was the only way I was functioning. And so I remember I was one of those.

[00:07:56.935] – Stephen Moore

Everyone has a different story. Those who get caught up in pornography and other sexual behaviors have a different story. But for me, the stage is kind of set this perfect storm of no No one to talk to, emotionally isolated, desperate for connection, but not able to find it with the people close to me for various reasons. And then all of a sudden this thing came along that felt connecting. Right. Sex is a form of connecting. And so so as far as the environment goes, we’ll talk more about kind of prevention on the other side.

[00:08:24.175] – Stephen Moore

But that environment is incredibly important. Lack of a support system or connection is is usually something that sets the stage for this. Now, I know that for parents of teens and this can be kind of hard, right? Because obviously teens are going to probably exhibit a lot of the symptoms, quote unquote. Right. That somebody who’s struggling with issues like pornography, that exhibit like emotional ability and other things like that. But there are some other signs that we can talk about here in a second that that kind of point more or towards that.

[00:08:53.665] – Stephen Moore

So hopefully that wasn’t too much of a ramble to you.

[00:08:56.305] – Hilary Erickson

Well, that’s good. I will say that kids are all experiencing kind of a weird trauma right now anyway. Yes, I think as a parent, I’m always trying to watch, although I remember growing up my mom had like a magnet on the fridge of like 50 signs of drug addiction when I was a teenager.

[00:09:11.005] – Hilary Erickson

And I was like, turns out I have all those, but I wasn’t addicted to drugs.

[00:09:16.215] – Stephen Moore

Yes, absolutely. And it’s you know, it’s I think it is a hard environment for teens these days. I I work with parents all the time who will ask some of the questions that we’re talking about today and work with teens as clients all the time. And, you know, oftentimes we have to have this discussion, especially with my concern. I grew up in a conservative household that said irreverently conservative still. And and a lot of my clients reference from that point.

[00:09:41.695] – Stephen Moore

I know a lot of your listeners do, too. And a conservative household, part of the environment that we’re talking about is oftentimes there’s and this is both talking about prevention. Right, in terms of what you can do as parents differently, but also addressing some sometimes. Well, parents from a well-meaning standpoint don’t always do most optimal way, like when I grew up in my household, that you knew my parents and they were great people. They are great people.

[00:10:06.155] – Stephen Moore

Read no complaints at all. But I mean, there was a feeling in my household growing up, maybe this is incorrect. But like, if I was to come to the dinner table and have said some sexual term, like just it said, like, I heard this word today, what do you think? My parents would have looked at me, looked at each other. They would have grabbed me by the arm and like, we’ll be down the hall to their bedroom where you only go if you’re in trouble.

[00:10:29.125] – Stephen Moore

And it would have been like a ten minute lecture about how we don’t talk about that kind of stuff. Like sex was a very taboo topic. And I find that with a lot of the clients that I work with. Thankfully, that’s changing a lot now. But there’s a lot of when you throw in already the awkwardness of teen hood. Right. If you will, about sexuality and bodies and things. And then you throw in sometimes these cultural norms that come from, again, other cultural backgrounds, too, but also more conservative cultures.

[00:10:58.075] – Stephen Moore

It makes for kind of a really it makes for an interesting topic, because sex is probably the most sexuality is probably the most universal topic to humanity. There is everybody deals with it on some level. Absolutely everyone. But it’s also like by by far, I find most uncomfortable topics for most people, including parents. And so oftentimes, without even knowing it, parents can kind of have their kind of that taboo, taboo ness attached to it. Like when like when my mom this is kind of funny.

[00:11:27.265] – Stephen Moore

When my dad or my dad or my dad gave me the talk, I remember we have to talk. And it was, again, very solemn experience back in Dad’s bedroom, which it’s like, oh, crap, you only go back here, you’re getting beat or something.

[00:11:44.485] – Stephen Moore

And and and he sits me down and he said all the right things, like he did all the right things. But here’s the thing. My dad was a CEO of a company and I had seen him like face off with, like big wigs in meetings and things and heard it through the walls. And I’d seen him work in different religious positions and things, even though he said all the right things. That man was more uncomfortable during that conversation than I have ever seen him in my entire life.

[00:12:10.465] – Stephen Moore

And at the end of it, I was just he was like, you know, so if you have any questions, let me know. And the one thing that I thought was there is no way on God’s green earth I’m ever going to ask you questions about this, because this was just weird. Right? So anyway, that kind of takes us to the normalized in the conversation.

[00:12:26.635] – Hilary Erickson

Although I have to say, knowing his dad, so our grandpa, he probably made leaps and bounds from.

[00:12:32.465] – Stephen Moore

Maynard Oh, I’m sure I’m trying to think quantum quantum leaps. Yeah, probably, absolutely. Well, and and it is a generational norm. Our grandparents, I don’t think we’re really any different than the typical most of the clients that I work with, some elderly clients as well. And I say elderly. I use that term while they’re like in their sixties, mid to late sixties. And for them, one of the biggest barriers is them just opening up in my office like they know they need help.

[00:13:01.865] – Stephen Moore

But the thought of talking to some kid like who’s a little more than half their age about what’s going on in their bedroom is just like the most horrifying concept on the planet. Yeah. And once we get them open up and talking about it, then we make some real cool changes. But but that’s a pretty that’s a pretty strong norm for that for that generation. So I would agree with you. It has been a boost since.

[00:13:22.565] – Hilary Erickson

Well, hopefully we’re all making sure our kids are going to do it so great. They’re going to have great conversations as part of what our parents do.

[00:13:30.275] – Stephen Moore

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:32.735] – Hilary Erickson

OK, so but how did you get like what did you look at first or did you read.

[00:13:36.965] – Stephen Moore

Yeah, I can talk about that. So yeah. Access points. So for me and this is kind of an important thing to note, not all pornography is created equal. I during this time. Right, leading up to getting caught up in like masturbation, I was again lots of pain struggling for anything. And we some listeners may not remember what this was.

[00:14:00.215] – Stephen Moore

I we used to get the newspaper in my house like every day. Usually we got a couple of them because my mom worked for a newspaper, so we were getting multiple and then we’d have the Sunday ads and all that stuff and those especially on Sundays, but other days too where those I still remember distinctly J.C. Penney women’s underwear catalogs that would come in the mail. And I remember as a kid, I would like it pretty quickly. I don’t know how long this took, but I, I kind of got in a pattern of taking those.

[00:14:27.915] – Stephen Moore

I’d steal those and like Heidel and I’d look at them that for me. Now, I don’t say this in a bragging way, but since that time I have seen far more pornography involved, far more in my past than I care to admit. But looking back, there really wasn’t anything there hasn’t been anything that I’ve experienced since then that was more toxifying. And again, that has to do with the environments. Oftentimes when we think of pornography, think of like classic stuff, I’m crazy rated X websites, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:14:55.175] – Stephen Moore

But what the research is showing is that the definition of pornography is a lot less to do with what you’re seeing or hearing or experiencing and a lot more to do with your mentality behind it. And for and again, I was in a place of because to most people that would just be an underwear catalog, just your average Joe. Most people would come across and just say, oh, that’s just what that is. But for me, it was like it was a portal to escape.

[00:15:21.725] – Stephen Moore

It was for me, it’s the only way I can describe it. So…

[00:15:24.935] – Hilary Erickson

And you desperately needed that with what was going on.

[00:15:27.465] – Stephen Moore

But I did. I mean, the time I just you only know what you know. And at the time, I just didn’t have better ways of coping. Plus, coupled with the with the fact, again, there was this lack of knowledge, which, again, we’ll talk about here in a minute. I didn’t know what I was dealing with.

[00:15:42.365] – Stephen Moore

Like I knew that I’d always heard pornography was bad and whatever, like vague references to it at church and with family and things. But like, I really didn’t I first of all, I didn’t identify this as pornography because I thought porn was naked people. All right. And then the second thing that’s I just had no idea the fire that I was playing on, this thirteen year old thinking I’m like playing with matches, but really the rooms, like filled with gasoline, like it was really dangerous.

[00:16:08.115] – Hilary Erickson

Oh interesting. Yeah. Because I think we all talk about it as like a full on sexual naked or but I like that, that it’s just what’s going on in your brain.

[00:16:16.805] – Stephen Moore

Yeah absolutely.

[00:16:18.095] – Hilary Erickson

Because you can see naked people like obviously portraiture and all these fine works of art without feeling like it’s pornographic.

[00:16:25.355] – Stephen Moore

Absolutely. For sure. And even as a kid, there were times at which I could see that kind of stuff, even though I was kind of getting deep into an addiction type lifestyle, there were things that I would that I would see like like you’re saying like classical art that wouldn’t have an impact on me.

[00:16:41.345] – Stephen Moore

And so it has a lot to do with one’s mentality and also everything else that is going on. One thing that we know about human human humanity, right on a baseline levels that people on a baseline are wired to connect. Everybody’s wired to connect with your perception, your occasional like Jeffrey Dahmer, who’s like a legitimate sociopath. Everybody needs that. And when you’re talking about different kinds of addictions and how they work, even though sex addiction is just does share a sexual addiction or compulsion to share a lot of similarities with other types of behaviors, it even more so hits on the connected well with sex is a form of connecting.

[00:17:14.945] – Stephen Moore

And so for those who are disconnected in their lives, again, from from a higher power, from their God, from higher power, from family or friends, for whatever the reason. Right. Because there’s a variety of reasons for that. The more vulnerable they will be to getting pulled into something like this, because not only does it provide a dopamine release in a number of different. There’s stuff that it does, but on an emotional level, you know, when you’re looking at pornography, even as a kid, I couldn’t vocalize this at the time for a kid who didn’t feel wanted or loved, you feel wanted and loved in that fantasy world, you don’t feel accepted by friends at school.

[00:17:48.155] – Stephen Moore

I have leukemia twice as a kid. So it’s kind of awkward with my that probably didn’t help things. I spent two years in the hospital as a kid. You don’t feel like you quite fit in with your classmates. Here are people on a screen who completely accept you. Yeah. And so for that 10, 15 minutes, you feel connected. And so there’s that. Add an emotional add an emotional hook. A lot of people look at pornography and they say, well, it’s it’s the sex, it’s the nudity.

[00:18:13.175] – Stephen Moore

And that’s definitely part of it. But the real folks that we’re seeing with people, including teenagers, is the emotional side of it. Right. It’s the it’s it’s it’s removing it’s putting in as much fantasy as possible and removing and dehumanizing as much as you can with the people involved in it, because that disrupts the fantasy. The opposite of humanizing is objectifying. And and it’s much easier. I mean, the sad truth is the porn industry hires guys like me and then convert them to like the dark side to like create pornography.

[00:18:42.395] – Stephen Moore

Like, it’s a really scary kind of prospect. Know what’s out there. Wow. So they really do that, by the way. They have like psychologists that they have like on set who are like this is this will probably be the most alluring, like it’s that.

[00:18:56.095] – Stephen Moore

So…

[00:18:56.915] – Hilary Erickson

How do you go home and like, look at the mirror, look at your laptop.

[00:19:01.205] – Stephen Moore

I don’t know, maybe, I don’t know…

[00:19:04.295] – Hilary Erickson

Compartmentalizing.

[00:19:05.855] – Stephen Moore

Maybe porn. I don’t know. I guess that I guess so, but yeah.

[00:19:11.585] – Hilary Erickson

What are your best tips to help kids understand maybe what? Because everyone’s going to maybe take a peek at naked pictures, because I remember, like, I probably had never seen a naked man. Yeah. And then obviously I took anatomy that was not a sexual thing at all.

[00:19:29.105] – Hilary Erickson

We had been of male genitalia that we would pull out and pass through to know, like, what all the things were. So that’s not sexual. And I think it’s important for kids to understand that just understanding what a naked person looks like is different than porn, right?

[00:19:42.125] – Stephen Moore

Absolutely. Yeah. So I grew up in a conservative culture. I work with a lot of religious congregation leaders as part of my work and different faiths. And I talked to pastors, bishops, priests pretty frequently.

[00:19:56.855] – Stephen Moore

And they will oftentimes in those different cultures, there’s a component of keeping an eye on sexuality and pornography. And the main is my is my flock, so to speak, kind of living those values. And they’ll ask me, how do I address this with people in my congregation, my particular faith tradition, they they include a process with this where they’ll ask you various times during your childhood, have you ever been involved in pornography? And what I tell these religious leaders over and over again is that conversation has to change because because we live in a world now where that that question is a misnomer.

[00:20:32.375] – Stephen Moore

Every kid is being exposed to pornography. I hope I’m not going to freak parents out too much here. But the research shows that the average age of exposure as of like two years ago, and I’m sure it’s going down, is six and a half for their first exposure. You cannot grow up in the world that we live in anymore. And when I grew up, there was kind of this old school mentality of like, just stay away from it, stay away from it, don’t do it, don’t look at it, don’t whatever.

[00:20:54.005] – Stephen Moore

But we live in such a highly digitized and combined with sexualized culture. It isn’t a question of if kids are running into pornography, it’s a question of what do they do when they do. Most kids by the age of ten are already because all it takes is one kid on the school playground with the cell phone their parents gave them with no restrictions because the parents are not in the know or not keeping an eye on it. I hear story after story from from parents who have come to me and say, my kid was at school today and there was a big group of kids over in the corner on the far side of the playground.

[00:21:25.475] – Stephen Moore

So he ran over to go see what was all about. And they’re all sitting around a phone watching porn. Like, that’s the kind of crazy stuff that is happening now. And I wish I could tell you that that was atypical. But I it it’s becoming more and more common. And so as far as the tips go, I mean, you’re your best line of defense is kind of a and for a lot of parents, that can be scary.

[00:21:45.245] – Stephen Moore

There is kind of an acceptance that has to happen around this idea that this is probably happening. I think a lot of parents, without realizing and this is not a slam at all, but I think the thought of their kids being pulled into that is so scary that it’s for a lot. It’s just easier to not look at it because it is scary and it is it is hard and it’s difficult to think of your kid being exposed to that, getting caught up in it.

[00:22:07.085] – Stephen Moore

But, yeah, we need to be shifting that conversation to. When was the last time you saw pornography?

[00:22:11.645] – Hilary Erickson

Oh, that’s a good one.

[00:22:12.905] – Stephen Moore

Last month. Last last year. Right. That’s where it should be going. And that kind of goes to the next point I was going to make, which is normalizing sexuality in general. Again, I reference that kind of weird, convoluted birds and the bees talk that I had as a kid. What the research is also showing now, the latest research is showing that that conversation is a.

[00:22:32.055] – Stephen Moore

Dialogue that should be happening, not a one time one off, let’s talk about maturation, throw your a a show you some genitals and then move on like it’s like this is a this needs to be an ongoing conversation, age appropriate, of course. But but I’m encouraging parents, at least given that age that I gave you of exposure at age four, five in an age appropriate way, you start that conversation about who’s allowed to touch you and what parts and why, and you keep it really basic and then you kind of move it up.

[00:23:04.785] – Stephen Moore

The chain is as as they get older and you kind of dial up the the maturity level of it. But that needs to be something that I mean, the the clients that I see who are most resilient to these issues and overcoming them when they’ve happened and also the family dynamics that I’ve seen. And again, the research would support this, that that are most resilient to this becoming a problem for their kids or households where sex in a healthy way is an open topic.

[00:23:30.415] – Stephen Moore

Right. It’s something that there is a freedom to be able to be discussed if a kid brings that up, but I was just talking to one of my sisters the other day about this. If one of your kids brings that and she’s actually really good at doing this in their house and they say it’s been working great. If somebody brings up something sexual or says the term they heard in school and they just ask the parents, don’t shy from it, they immediately just address and they just say, well, that’s actually what this means.

[00:23:52.495] – Stephen Moore

And if you want to talk about it more after after dinner, we don’t usually, like, say that in everyday conversation. But here’s the definition. Let’s talk about it more afterwards if you want to. Yeah. And I’ll just address it right on point. There is no running ushering you into the back room or shying away from it or hushing or anything. It’s we normalize it and normalize that normalizing that conversation is going to be a parent’s number one defense against this becoming a problem, because the more we create a sense of shame around sexuality, which oftentimes we do in conservative cultures without it’s again, it’s not intentional.

[00:24:28.735] – Stephen Moore

But the more we create kind of a culture of shame or isolation around it, we we tend to set the stage for this becoming an issue, because when kids become exposed, when they’re when there isn’t that dynamic where they don’t have people, where they feel like they can go and talk to about it, then they will keep accessing the sources that they originally got the information from. For more information about it, which is not a good way to go.

[00:24:50.215] – Stephen Moore

Right. Because your kids I mean, everyone listening, I guarantee you, your kids are talking about sex. If they’re if they’re I mean, this is really concerned. It’s probably rooted in this. But if they’re 10 or above those conversations, at least intermittently, are happening. And you really have two options when it comes to sex and your kids, you can teach your kids about sex or their friends/The world will teach them for you.

[00:25:12.865] – Stephen Moore

There really isn’t a door number three. And so the more you can get ahead of that as a parent and be the one to be able to say, look, here’s here’s how this works. This is what this is about. And you create that dialogue and you normalize the conversation, then it becomes a free flowing thing so that when they are exposed, when they do have an issue, it is in this immediate, oh, my gosh, what’s my parent, one of my parents going to think, oh, we’ve been talking about this for forever.

[00:25:37.315] – Hilary Erickson

Right? It’s just like talking about vegetables.

[00:25:39.445] – Stephen Moore

Yeah, exactly. And no, a lot of people have a problem with that. In the book that I published, I there’s a chapter that I named because it’s secret or because it’s sacred should also be secret making a lot of conservative cultures, including myself, reference sex is a pretty sacred topic. And I would I’m in that camp, but too often in our culture, I think we we convolute terms like sacred secrecy simply because something sacred doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t ever be talked about or discussed.

[00:26:05.065] – Stephen Moore

At least to me, that is what I’m finding more and more is, if anything, those should probably be talked about more. So there is a way to have a conversation that is with your kids about about pornography, about sex. That doesn’t have to be in any way crass or convoluted or degrading or anything like that, because, again, sex is something that we all it’s probably the most human part of humanity. But but it is fascinating how we tend to get culturally when it comes up.

[00:26:33.355] – Stephen Moore

It’s like sex. Yeah.

[00:26:36.505] – Hilary Erickson

I have to say, my talk with my mom was not any better than yours because they have the same talk as a kid. And when I had the talk with my kids, I’m just constantly like, this is biology. Like you talk about biology all the time. And I always had with my kids and they knew a lot because also because I’ve worked in labor and delivery and I like probably at age four, a kid was like, well, how could a 12 year old have a baby?

[00:27:00.715] – Hilary Erickson

You know, I was like, yeah, not married. You’re not married, is she? And I’d be like, no, you don’t have to be married. And so we you always end up having those kind of conversations. But nice. Take the nurse out. I like.

[00:27:12.475] – Hilary Erickson

But you’re constantly like biology class. Like I it was just my head. It’s just biology class, you know, because my biology teachers and obviously in anatomy, I mean it was weird to pull out the bean of male genitalia, but it’s just something, you know, same as like pulling out an arm. We had a bit of arms, so.

[00:27:29.845] – Stephen Moore

Yeah, totally. Absolutely. So it’s it is it’s one of those ongoing, ongoing things I and something that I think as parents, it’s much easier said than done, obviously.

[00:27:41.005] – Hilary Erickson

OK, so obviously kids are going to see it and we need to be open and honest about those things. But how like what are some things that you parents could notice that it’s like really starting to become an issue?

[00:27:51.595] – Stephen Moore

Yeah. So, gosh, I honestly, I was kind of the poster boy at that age for what you should be looking for. One is emotional withdrawal and isolation and kind of coupled with that is emotional variability. So reactions on on both sides of the spectrum, both happy and sad, that don’t seem to kind of correlate with what’s going on with that in that kid’s life.

[00:28:15.985] – Stephen Moore

Also, you want to be looking out for. We could we could and probably should do a whole podcast one day on shame. But a lot of shame based responses are typical with kids who are getting caught in this again, especially in a conservative household. And so there will be a lot of secret keeping, a lot of secrecy, there’s a high resistance to the topic, if it’s brought up in defenses immediately go up and there’s just flat out the denial.

[00:28:40.345] – Stephen Moore

Like it’s not just like, no, I don’t have a problem. It’s like, no, I’ve never do that. Never in a million years. Why would you say I can’t believe you say that? Mom, why would you say that? Right. So those would be things to also keep an eye out for. Now, the problem with this, and I recognize this, is that what I’m describing is probably describing teenagers in general to some degree, which is can be kind of a challenge.

[00:29:00.775] – Stephen Moore

But that’s where, again, that open dialogue in that conversation comes in. If you suspect that there’s a problem, just because you haven’t started that conversation doesn’t mean that you can’t start today. And for a parent, that that means getting really brave because you have to be comfortable with the subject first before your kids are. This is not a topic where you can put kids are far more where than parents oftentimes give them credit for. At least that’s what I’m finding in my office.

[00:29:24.175] – Stephen Moore

And that many kids have the same experience that I kind of vocalised where they pick up on on the nonverbal cues more than we realize. And you have to be comfortable in your own skin to talk about this topic in a very on an on an appropriate level before you can kind of do that with the kid. But you can start that conversation today and get that dialogue going. There are a couple of other things as far as so. So those would be some of the signs and symptoms.

[00:29:47.815] – Stephen Moore

But yeah, low self-confidence, low self-worth. Again, emotional withdrawal. I know that does describe a lot of kids at different times, but that’s going to be definitely some of the not not oh my gosh, my kid is born problem, but I should probably take a look more of a look at this

[00:30:02.965] – Hilary Erickson

or maybe a deeper check in where you go out to dinner.

[00:30:05.305] – Stephen Moore

Yeah,

[00:30:06.225] – Hilary Erickson

and it’s all that kid one on one. Yeah, totally. Absolutely.

[00:30:10.015] – Stephen Moore

Just again, make it as not not casual, but make it as just normal as possible. Like, this is just a this is OK. Like you’re a sexual person. I’m s.. We’re all sexual people. Like let’s just have a conversation. Right. And and so that would be probably the best thing as far as preventative measures go. I would I will just put in a quick plug for monitoring software can be good at this age later on in life with between couples and things, there’s kind of some mixed info.

[00:30:38.125] – Stephen Moore

Let’s talk about the day. But but as far as kids go, monitoring software can be really good. What I recommend to most parents are our softwares that include a black and white list feature. A lot of parents haven’t heard of what that is. But essentially what that means is there are programs out there. I won’t advertise any specific ones on the air. I should get a commission.

[00:30:58.075] – Stephen Moore

But but there are some really good ones out there that include the ability to create what’s called the white list and or black list. And so what that essentially does is on all the devices that this program is on, it redefines what the Internet is. A lot of kids, including myself, are pretty more tech savvy than their parents. And there are all sorts of creative ways that a kid can get around the search terminology and stuff. You know, when you type stuff into a search bar that normally would be circumvented by like your typical filter.

[00:31:28.285] – Stephen Moore

Let’s think about a white a white list filter. Is that you just what you do is you put in like the list of, I don’t know, 50 websites or whatever it is that your family uses. Right. That are safe for school, for work, for whatever you create that list, you click save and for that device that as just redefine what the Internet is for your device. So there is no Internet outside of these 50 sites unless somebody changes the settings.

[00:31:52.835] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, that’s getting hard now, though, especially because they’re like we we’ve had to allow YouTube basically. I mean, we have kids safe, but they have to look at videos in class for now. I’m like, great, that’s super. Yeah, well, who knows, maybe YouTube’s going to, like, send me some legal notice for saying this. But I will tell you and I say this is is a guy who’s worked with a lot of kids.

[00:32:14.245] – Stephen Moore

Parents need to be aware there is straight up porn, gets YouTube. Don’t be fooled. They do it. I think they do a pretty good job to try and monitor it. I don’t know. That’s YouTube’s fault. But there are how many videos uploaded every minute I have had kids report and have seen access to adult content on YouTube, kids, the kids version of whatever.

[00:32:35.515] – Stephen Moore

So, yeah, it’s a good it’s a good starting point. But you really want to. That’s where kind of the monitoring piece comes in as well, because that allows you as a parent to periodically kind of check and say, OK, they were on YouTube, but were they actually watching? Yeah, right. Like what was actually coming up on the screen. Yeah. So but yeah, that would probably be the I think coupling that with the with the other stuff is important because kids are just going to be inherently curious.

[00:32:59.515] – Stephen Moore

Right. Again, most most kids have because of the culture that we’re in, they’re going to either be exposed to it or expose themselves to it. And as parents, I think that there’s a lot more value in instead of trying to insulate your kids from every sexual source because that I work with parents who do that, it’s kind of like a sexual cold war with your kid instead of facing off like Russia with the West, it’s like we’re trying to outwit each other.

[00:33:24.955] – Stephen Moore

It’s you’re going to find much more success by opening the dialogue, putting some filters. And some barriers in place making sure that those devices there’s some accountability with those devices and then keeping that dialogue going forward, that way you maintain the trust level with the child, with your children, so that when, like I said, other issues come down the pipe, be they sexual or otherwise, you haven’t lost that. It hasn’t become a you want to avoid at all costs the you versus your kid mentality.

[00:33:53.465] – Stephen Moore

Right. And you want this to be collaborative as much as you possibly can. Yeah, I will say we had filters with my oldest, who is now a computer science major, and he got around everything. Sure. Then it was just a toy like how can I meet the system? It was us versus him. So that’s not. Absolutely. And I remember doing the same thing. There is actually there’s actually kind of a thrill for a guy who is more compulsive or diction oriented with this, because that does happen on the spectrum.

[00:34:18.515] – Stephen Moore

Not everybody to access stuff, but there is actually a high that kind of comes that I remember feeling that that was like half the rush was like, hey, can I be the filter, get around whatever, you know. So in addition to everything else you feel and the experience, now you’ve got this this sense of like power. Right. And I know that may sound weird to somebody who’s not been exposed to this stuff before, again, as a kid or even an adult who’s craving those kinds of feelings where they feel so powerless in their life, where they don’t feel smart or intelligent when they do things like that and they’re able to one up the man or whatever they’re there is kind of that on its own high of sorts.

[00:34:55.295] – Hilary Erickson

Man kids. I know.

[00:34:57.875] – Stephen Moore

So I hope this isn’t like too much info.

[00:35:01.265] – Hilary Erickson

OK, so if you find that your kid does have an issue like you’ve confirmed that you’ve talked with them, obviously parents, if it’s if it’s an addiction type, they need to get help. And what do you even look up like? What or where do you go?

[00:35:13.715] – Stephen Moore

That’s a great, great question. So I I’m a licensed clinical social worker, which is the state licensed that I have that says it’s OK for me to talk to people about hard stuff.

[00:35:23.495] – Stephen Moore

But in addition to that, you’re going to want to look for if you do decide to go with a therapist, you’re going to want to look for somebody who either at least had a baseline, has extensive experience working with kids around this issue. But there are some certifications to look for as well. I’m a certified sex addiction therapist, or CSI, which is done through an organization called I Tap the Patrick Corones, kind of the father of sex addiction recovery and all things sexual in terms of clinical stuff.

[00:35:52.985] – Stephen Moore

Back in the day when nobody thought sex could be a problem on a clinical level, he’s the one who kind of founded that organization. So looking for somebody with Betsy said Monica is a good baseline. There’s a lot of heavy training associated with it. I kind of was like a second master’s degree to go and do that for me. So. So that’s where you would want to, I think, start the most and then also do look at references and reviews, because not I will tell you all the love in the world to my colleagues, but not all therapists are created.

[00:36:24.545] – Stephen Moore

Well, not every therapist is a good fit for every client. And so those are things that you want to kind of look for on the outset. There are some good resources for you to go to as well. For parents specifically, many of you may be familiar with this. It’s gained some pretty national and international prominence. But Fight the New Drug is an organization that is actually based in Utah, ironically, and it is a website and a resource for kids and teens, of all things kind of pornography related for parents and teens.

[00:36:56.075] – Stephen Moore

They’ve got everything on there, from research to facts to personal stories and videos of parents and kids dealing with this issue to all that stuff. So it’s a great way to get to educate yourself whether there’s no religious affiliation to it. They they very much come at it from a cure, the societal and the emotional impacts of pornography. Right.

[00:37:16.025] – Hilary Erickson

Well, that’s great, especially if you’re a parent. You’re just like, I don’t know. I don’t even know where to start.

[00:37:20.165] – Stephen Moore

Yes. That would be a great resource to go to. They also have some cool programs that that kids can even participate in. If you do find that your teen is having an issue, they have a program to get a cut of commissionaire class. And he’s the founder of a club. I hope you’re listening to this. They say there’s a program that they have called Sportify, which is for teenagers, which is kind of like an online account of journaling program that can take kids on an individual level through creating some mindfulness and some other therapeutic awareness around the issue and actually give them help on working on it on an individual level where they have to go see someone.

[00:37:56.675] – Stephen Moore

Now, that’s probably not nearly as effective as seeing therapists, but it’s like ten dollars a month. And obviously that might be a good starting a good starting point. So, yeah, there are other programs out there like it as well, but that’s probably the best one that I know of for teens.

[00:38:12.305] – Hilary Erickson

That’s great, that would be really helpful. What about sending them to the their clergy?

[00:38:16.595] – Stephen Moore

I would say that if that is part of the faith tradition, if you as a parent are comfortable with the individual, I think that that I don’t think that that’s a bad idea.

[00:38:25.325] – Stephen Moore

I think it can be a really good idea. The big thing that you want to keep aware of. Though, is that, again, in conservative cultures, in my faith, tradition is one of these the old school sort of thinking around addressing this issue was really focusing on kind of the moral argument behind it. Now, it’s not to say that there isn’t such a concept of right and wrong, because that obviously exists. But I am a living, breathing product of what happens belonging to an organization where for over a decade, their main approach to it was just don’t do it.

[00:38:54.155] – Stephen Moore

And here’s all the unique ways in which you’re going to burn in hell if you do do it right. That just never resonated for me. It actually created more shame and hopelessness and feeling like I wasn’t enough. Where you’re going to find the most traction is with clergymen or people out there who are able to say, yeah, you know what? There is a moral argument to be had about it before. But before I bust open the Bible and tell you all these things about how wrong that says, like, let’s talk about how is it impacting you?

[00:39:18.455] – Stephen Moore

Have you noticed any changes as it is or have you do you feel better or worse when you look at it right, like asking rather than going straight to this right and wrong moral argument. If you want to look at both as parents but also with clergymen, you want to be and same thing with therapists because there are some of those as well. You want to be looking for people to have that discussion, open that dialogue first, because that is what’s really going to resonate and be helpful to a kid struggling with it.

[00:39:44.885] – Stephen Moore

This they’re already embarrassed about it and feel a lot of shame around it already. Piling that on does not induce at best psychologically that induces short term behavior change kind of compels a person to change, but it doesn’t it doesn’t induce conversion. And that’s what you’re looking for when you’re when you’re talking about this issue is not how do I not get my kids to look at this? It’s a bigger conversation, right? It’s not just how do I keep my kid from looking at porn?

[00:40:10.895] – Stephen Moore

What’s the bigger conversation? How do I help my kid develop healthy, healthily, sexually in a very unhealthy, sexualized world? And so when you look at it from that picture, you just want to be bringing in allies, allies in different forms, be the clergy or others who are going to be able to front that same objective. So me personally, as a parent, I would definitely be meeting this clergyman. I might even go with my child to the appointments, that kind of thing.

[00:40:35.135] – Stephen Moore

But yeah, I think that I think as long as there are safeguards in place and I think that that can be a potential help.

[00:40:41.525] – Hilary Erickson

Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think a lot of it I would probably have a discussion with your kid if they’re comfortable seeing that person, because absolutely. My oldest has real issues with being asked that frequently. So for sure. Yeah. If I didn’t know that until now. Yeah.

[00:40:56.275] – Stephen Moore

I mean, if you force a kid to go do this, it’s going to be painful for your kid and they’re probably going to be a feeling of betrayal. And frankly, there’s going to it’s going to be painful for the clergy person, too, because I’ve worked with clients like that where parents have kind of just brought their kid in and just like fix my kid. And those first three sessions is really expensive, like talking about the weather and the jazz and stuff, because there’s just trying to get them to open up.

[00:41:20.225] – Stephen Moore

They’re just a sealed box, so. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:41:24.065] – Hilary Erickson

Well, I think those are some great tips. I think especially that part about raising sexually healthy kids versus don’t look at porn. I mean, we look at all of us that way. We aren’t just like raising kids who don’t eat sugar. We’re we’re raising kids who eat the rainbow and eat to stay healthy first. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think if we try and just normalize it like anything else in the world, moderation in all things.

[00:41:50.705] – Stephen Moore

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean the goal is not to and sometimes you’d be surprised how much kids and even adult clients that I work with, they pick up on this. They feel like that if they come to see somebody like me or if they talk to their parents at some point in the conversation, there’s going to be this talk about don’t do this, you know, and and sex is one of those parts of lives that I always tell those clients.

[00:42:12.425] – Stephen Moore

When I’m meeting with them, I’ll say I’m actually doing the opposite. Like, I want you to have loads of sex, like have sex all the time if you want. It just needs to be a healthy, connected building way that doesn’t come with all this negative, all these negative, emotional, spiritual, mental consequences. Yeah, so that’s just my take on it.

[00:42:32.225] – Hilary Erickson

All right. Great advice. So my current what I do is I yell upstairs if he’s alone in his room with his laptop and it’s not school hours, I say, would you stop looking at porn and come downstairs?

[00:42:42.725] – Hilary Erickson

Is that a good way to deal with it?

[00:42:44.465] – Stephen Moore

I would definitely say no. My wife and I are at the point where we can actually kind of joke that way. I can tell you that right now, a year or six into sobriety, that’s kind of funny. Year one that wasn’t so funny and and probably would I would have slept even more on the couch than I did before.

[00:43:04.835] – Hilary Erickson

So, yeah. OK, so maybe I’m failing as a parent…

[00:43:08.555] – Stephen Moore

But no, I, I know you and I know your way and I love it. I a doctor if I was to have kids who knows if that’ll happen, I would, I would be probably the same way. So I think you’re right.

[00:43:21.755] – Hilary Erickson

I mean obviously I’m more worried about him helping make dinner probably.

[00:43:25.415] – Hilary Erickson

Sure.

[00:43:29.345] – Stephen Moore

Look, I don’t care what you’re looking at just about here, like me,

[00:43:31.825] – Hilary Erickson

to make my life easier.

[00:43:34.655] – Stephen Moore

Exactly, exactly. It’s all right.

[00:43:36.875] – Hilary Erickson

Awesome discussion. We’re going to have Stephen back on to talk about it in marriage. Today, we talked about it and kids, but I think it’s an important discussion on marriage. So we’re going to have a second episode. Stay tuned.

[00:43:46.385] – Stephen Moore

Yes. If you’re if you’re up for more trauma, come on back for the sequel.

[00:43:52.085] – Hilary Erickson

That’s right. All right. Thanks, Stephen.

[00:43:55.565] – Stephen Moore

Thank you.

[00:43:57.185] – Hilary Erickson

OK, a little longer than our usual episode, but I didn’t want to stop it because I just think it’s really good details for us to think of as parents. I just like the idea that we’re trying to create healthy sexual individuals world rather than so focused on no porn ever, yada, yada. You know what I’m saying? So like I said at the beginning, we’re all just on a spectrum and we want our kids to be able to be healthy, normal adults who leave functioning lives and have connections and attachments with other people.

[00:44:22.925] – Hilary Erickson

So he does actually have a program coming out on April 12th. So stay tuned. I like this episode so much, we’re going to have him back on talking about adults and porn addiction. So I think that will be really interesting. His course will be out in April, so stay tuned for that. And you can also find him again at the Dare to Connect podcast or ASCENCION counseling. So if you want to learn more, there’s lots of places I’ll put all of those links in the show notes.

[00:44:44.885] – Hilary Erickson

Thanks so much for joining us today. I hope we help smooth out a few of the snarls in your life. We drop an episode every Monday and we always appreciate it when you guys share and review until next time. We hope you have a tangle every day.